Curse

Lagg · Oct 24, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

A very basic skill that any good PvE tank seems to be lacking, is the ability to (somehow) recover from a bad pull. No matter how skillful and careful a party is, these do occur, simply because of the game mechanics. So the need of an aggro-reclaiming skill arises.

I suggest a Warrior shout, with Tactics req, that makes all the enemies within his or her aggro circle, switch aggro to him.

"Get Over Here!" (as an homage to Mortal Kombat)

Cost: 10 energy
Recharge: 30 seconds

Shout. All nearby foes have a [50...80%] chance to target you. (Attrib: Tactics)

(At 16 Tactics, the chance should be 100%.)

Would this work in PvP? As my guildmate Sitting Sparrow suggested, this would work to some extent. Think of the chaos on the other team if everyone started targeting that Warrior at the same time. This could greatly hamper their coordinated calling.

entropy · Oct 24, 2005, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Do you really need to make PvE easier??? And I don't think any skill should be able to contol another players characters. Such as in this.

Lagg · Oct 24, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Easier? Not really.

Just a tad bit more coordinated, providing us with a clever defense against faltering game mechanics (e.g. at times enemies will run "through" you or simply "lag past" you). Of course, this skill is targeted at the high-end PvE areas such as The Underworld and the Fissure of Woe.

As for its uses in PvP, I admit that they might seem a little overdaring. This is, by all means, a PvE-oriented skill and I personally wouldn't mind if it had absolutely no use in PvP.

Yichi · Oct 24, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

/notsigned

this can be done already by letting the warior run in without other players being in his aggro circle. the mobs rush the warrior, monk casts healing seed, res cast aoe spells and nuke. simple and effective. no need to use a slot in my skill bar for something i can do without that skill.

derrtyboy69 · Oct 24, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

/notsigned

just stand in front of them, your group should be able to pick up the slack anyway

striderkaaru · Oct 24, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58

/notsigned

crowd control is what defines a really good tank from a decent tank. in case things go really wrong (aggro is broken and the enemies rush to the squishies), a good tank should have back up strategies and should still be able to help defend the casters. being able to ensure aggro just makes everything so much easier. a tank should know what to do to protect his casters in case he loses aggro.

MSecorsky · Oct 24, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Like totally /not signed.

Talk about making the runners jobs easier (in pairs)... one guy plows the road for the tandem runner.

Ugh.

Epinephrine · Oct 24, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

/notsigned

Aggro is easy to get with a good party and a good warrior. Removing skill from the game is not on my agenda.

Lagg · Oct 24, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

this can be done already by letting the warior run in without other players being in his aggro circle. the mobs rush the warrior, monk casts healing seed, res cast aoe spells and nuke. simple and effective. no need to use a slot in my skill bar for something i can do without that skill.

Thank you for this masterful insight. You've changed my life.

But allow me to reiterate:

Quote:

No matter how skillful and careful a party is, these do occur, simply because of the game mechanics. So the need of an aggro-reclaiming skill arises.

Quote:

(e.g. at times enemies will run "through" you or simply "lag past" you)

Aggro breaks at times, no matter if you know what you're doing or not. It's due to network latency. In the same way that mobs sometimes get stuck in other mobs, the enemies will "teleport" almost in the middle of your group from out of nowhere. I'm not talking about doing Fort Ranik with a bunch of henchies, but about 6 Bladed Aatxes materialising out of nowhere when there were only 2 just a second before. Heck, we even had to deal with an invisible Aatxe once. So don't tell me it's the Warrior's fault. Even if you know your job, things can go wrong.

In a perfect world, you wouldn't need an aggro shout since you could manage aggro "by the book" at all times. But you can't, no matter how careful you are. And even when things don't go wrong, it would still be useful to have a skill that guarantees you keep the aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

in case things go really wrong (aggro is broken and the enemies rush to the squishies), a good tank should have back up strategies and should still be able to help defend the casters. being able to ensure aggro just makes everything so much easier. a tank should know what to do to protect his casters in case he loses aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Aggro is easy to get with a good party and a good warrior. Removing skill from the game is not on my agenda.

Yes, this is the case now and aggro management should still be a challenging art to master, even with the help of said skill. We're not talking about the be-all end-all magical solution to bad pulling, just a patchwork solution to fix a potentially broken part of the game.

This isn't about removing skill from the game, it's about rewarding teamplay. But hey, we all know encouraging aforementioned has never been high on the list of priorities, if at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Talk about making the runners jobs easier (in pairs)... one guy plows the road for the tandem runner.

Completely besides the point. What is keeping you from already doing this now?

Not to mention this should be a skill that you can only cast once every 30, no, even 60 seconds.

RoF · Oct 25, 2005, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Geez, you guys are being a bit harsh! Please provide an explanation and show that you thought about what he wrote it if you disagree.

I see where you're coming from. You're intentions are good, (encouraging team-oriented strategic play.) I think your skill description as written is simply too powerful for pve. The warriors challenge in pve (in general) is to keep the aggro off the weaker characters and on themselves. I'm not saying that this is easy to do, but this skill pretty much takes all of the challenge out of it.

But I do like your idea! So here's my suggestion...

Get Over Here
For min .... max seconds target foe can only target you.

or if that is too weak...

Get Over Here
For min .... max seconds target foe and all adjacent foes can only target you.

of course either of these skills would have a high energy cost and a long recharge.

What do you think?

neoteo · Oct 25, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

/not signed

its part of the game

all warriors think they are the best , but when they start doing 5 man farming in sorrow , they realize , they suc

same for casters and everybody else ... position is very important

warrior far away in front ... everyone must give time for total agro on him ... and time means good 5 to 10 seconds sometimes ...

if the tank fails for any reason ... warrior simply must run back ... all casters run even more far back ... until warrior is in front of casters as it sould be ..

" under attack ! " its good that we have to run back sometimes ... and die if we dont , or this game would be too easy ... i dont mind at all that they make pve harder and harder ... make it impossible , i want to win it

basacly , warrior must be always minimum half circle away from everybody ... casters stay minimum half circle from mobs (no agro) and w8 for warrior to agro a long time ... warrior should tru to get as many as possible malee on him ... echo nukes will work a lot faster

if they put that skill , the warrior circle might get smaller , im guessing ...

Lagg · Oct 25, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Thanks for backing me up on this, RoF.

While I can take criticism (be it positive or negative), I do want it to be constructive; and you seem to be the only one who has actually contributed to solving the issue so far.

I actually like your second suggestion even more than my initial one. As in:
For min .... max seconds target foe and all adjacent foes can only target you.

Now this said, this is still too powerful for PvP, since you can effectively disable a Monk this way (he can no longer target his teammates). So I would change "target" by "attack".

In PvE, this would translate to an aggroing/protecting skill. In pvp, to a form of Pacifism. The fact that it only works on a single creature (and eventually creatures bordering that one) would probably satisfy the people reasoning that calling all of the aggro to oneself is overkil. Yet, it would be of great help for especially powerful single or paired enemies who tend to easily break aggro for no apparent reason (Bladed Aatxes, Terrorweb Dryders, the Four Horsemen etc.).

neoteo · Oct 25, 2005, 02:33 AM // 02:33

i bet everything i have no skill like this will apear soon ...
if it comes in chapter 2 , alot of counter skills will come along
the effect its too inportant ... position skills would be totaly under valued ...

Lagg · Oct 25, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoteo

/not signed

its part of the game

all warriors think they are the best , but when they start doing 5 man farming in sorrow , they realize , they suc

same for casters and everybody else ... position is very important

warrior far away in front ... everyone must give time for total agro on him ... and time means good 5 to 10 seconds sometimes ...

if the tank fails for any reason ... warrior simply must run back ... all casters run even more far back ... until warrior is in front of casters as it sould be ..

" under attack ! " its good that we have to run back sometimes ... and die if we dont , or this game would be too easy ... i dont mind at all that they make pve harder and harder ... make it impossible , i want to win it

basacly , warrior must be always minimum half circle away from everybody ... casters stay minimum half way from mobs (no agro) and w8 for warrior to agro a long time ... warrior should tru to get as many as possible malee on him ... echo nukes will work a lot faster

if they put that skill , the warrior circle might get smaller , im guessing ...

Seriously, I hate to sound like a broken record and all, but did you even bother reading my original post?

There are many good Warriors out there who know how aggro works, who properly apply it, who are in parties that keep their distance and who react accordingly when things do go wrong.

My quirk is with the fact that aggro is simply broken sometimes. I'm sure it's not due to the programming directly, but because of the inherent problem of a game running on a network: latency. Now, you can go off and proclaim: "It's not a bug, it's a feature!", and I'll rest my case.

No matter how the situation evolves -- and yes indeed, good teams should be able to recover from bad pulls -- it does penalise organised teams sometimes, hence causing unnecessary frustration. Unless Anet reasons that teamplay should have the random factor and that only solo-farming should be a safe and sound activity, it's always the trained and well-prepared team that suffers from aggro problems.

I hate to have to put it bluntly like that, but PvE should be downright uneventful and boring, if you have a properly functioning team.

neoteo · Oct 25, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

----------------------------
it's always the trained and well-prepared team that suffers from aggro problems
----------------------------

sorry but you sound like a noob
i did read your post

id like to add just one more thing ...

do you know how latancy ( ping ) influences game play in FPShoters ?

whell , this game is not so diferent ... even better FPSeconds makes it easyer ... but doesnt mean that someone with a old machine and 56k connection cant be a better player ...

i always loved being able to make an headshot with 200 ping in unreal .. like you get used to the delay and use it for aiming ...

anyway ... i dont mind if the skill comes out , i think it is ( using guildwars cumunity words ) ... gay.

Funkinmofo · Oct 25, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

You would be better off proposing a rescue skill for when pulls/aggros go wrong.

Rescue:
Target touched ally is knocked down for (range based on tactics) secs and out of harms way while you intercede and attack agressive melee foe.
Energy - 10
Duration - based on tactics
Recharge - 45

Alone) · Oct 25, 2005, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Well Lagg, as much as I would have fun with that skill, I feel that skill would make PvP unbalanced. Same as PvE. There are already way too many warriors as there are now. And the game is set balanced. It's suppose to be team work, not a one man dependable job.

I understand your factors, and am using my imagination instead of just using one point of you. But I feel it will not just work out. Just out of curiousity, have you tried playing as other professions in PvP, a lot? You might get a better understanding of why people would hate this skill, and why there would be more warriors.

Too many warrior/monks running around.

Lagg · Oct 25, 2005, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Ah yes, we've escalated to name-calling. And only after 10 posts (not counting mine). I guess it could have been worse. It's always a joy to try and have a discussion on these forums.

Anyhow, we're talking about a game that runs in datacenters serving thousands of connections, right? Not on a 32-player Unreal server.

And even if it were running on a 32-player server (and actually, it runs almost as well, kudos to Anet), the game mechanics of an FPS shooter are completely different from an RPG.

Whether the skill comes out or not (and I think the chance of it actually happening is indeed very slim, I'm not denying that), teamplayers that apply proper aggroing procedures (which some of you have taken the trouble to outline) should be rewarded for doing so and not be treated with randomly breaking enemies. And I'm not even mentioning the completely invisible and lagging enemies that spawn out of thin air right in the middle of a party (I guess that would be a tribute to Final Fantasy's random encounters, then).

Positioning and crowd control have to remain the primary concerns of any good aggroing tank, no doubt about that. Removing that would indeed take most of the point and fun away from the game. And most of the times, doing this is enough to ensure a good pull.

But when things do go wrong, I remain stubborn in thinking that secondary help should exist in the form of a. another tank to catch the breakers (something every good team should have) and b. a skill that allows a tank to retrieve at least some of the lost aggro.

Alone) · Oct 25, 2005, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Well, you could always suggest it to make a new category for skills just strictly for PvE. It could happen.

Lagg · Oct 25, 2005, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alone)

Well Lagg, as much as I would have fun with that skill, I feel that skill would make PvP unbalanced. Same as PvE. There are already way too many warriors as there are now. And the game is set balanced. It's suppose to be team work, not a one man dependable job.

I understand your factors, and am using my imagination instead of just using one point of you. But I feel it will not just work out.

I'm absolutely with you on the PvP issue. I wouldn't even mind if the skill had no use at all in PvP (though I doubt they would consider inserting a skill that doesn't function in both modes), PvE is my primary concern her.

The fact that there are so many Wammos around doesn't warrant the fact that they know what they're doing. Sure thing, it's a popular class. It's also a very underestimated one. The truth is is that the Warrior/Monk combination is indeed very powerful and at the same time extremely vulnerable to inexperienced players and their parties.

Now, no matter how you look at it, the job of a tank is rather one-dimensional. Getting the aggro and keeping the aggro. Everything he does apart from that should be considered optional. It just happens that the Warrior/Monk may be the most appropriate class to do so (save perhaps for Warrior/Elementalists with Armor of Earth etc.).

My point is: even if you live by every rule and apply every trick in the book, sometimes things still go wrong. All in all not a bad thing, since it keeps things exciting (like I said before, truly organised teams should be downright boring in their efficiency), but it also causes a few frustrating scenarios, at times.

I'm not saying that The Underworld needs to become a walk in the park (to be honest, for my guild, it already is, we're publishing our Complete Guide to it soon), heck, they should beef it up even more. All of this still doesn't rule out the need of an aggroing skill.

Quote:

Just out of curiousity, have you tried playing as other professions in PvP, a lot? You might get a better understanding of why people would hate this skill, and why there would be more warriors.

I play very little PvP. It's not really my cup of tea. I've been having quite some fun in doing edge-bombs, though, but it's obviously more of a laugh than anything else.

And once again, this really isn't a PvP-oriented skill. As for more Warriors, I don't think you can possibly stop the influx. It's just a very popular class. That doesn't make it any less of an honourable one if you play it properly.